द ब्यूटीफुल ट्री: १८वीं सदी में भारत की स्वदेशी गुरुकुल शिक्षा (धर्मपाल)

Annexure F Correspondence between Mahatma Gandhi and Sir Philip Hartog MAHATMA GANDHI ON INDIGENOUS EDUCATION ...That does not finish the picture. We have education of this future state. I say without fear of my figures being challenged successfully, that today India is more illiterate than it was fifty or a hundred years ago, and so is Burma, because the British administrators, when they came to India, instead of taking hold of things as they were, began to root them out. They scratched the soil and began to look at the root, and left the root like that, and the beautiful tree perished. The village schools were not good enough for the British administrator, so he came out with his programme. Every school must have so much paraphernalia, building, and so forth. Well, there were no such schools at all. There are statistics left by a British administrator which show that, in places where they have carried out a survey, ancient schools have gone by the board, because there was no recognition for these schools, and the schools established after the European pattern were too expensive for the people, and therefore they could not possibly overtake the thing. I defy anybody to fulfill a programme of compulsory primary education of these masses inside of a century. This very poor country of mine is very ill able to sustain such an expensive method of education. Our state would revive the old village schoolmaster and dot every village with a school both for boys and girls. Question (SIR PHILIP HARTOG): Would Mr Gandhi give his authority for the statement that literacy had diminished in India during the last fifty years? Mr Gandhi replied that his authority was the Punjab Administration Reports, and said that he had published in Young India a study of the Punjab educational statistics. SIR PHILIP HARTOG: Would Mr Gandhi explain why the literacy figure was fourteen percent of the men and only two percent of the women, and why illiteracy was higher in Kashmir and Hyderabad than in British India? 346

Mr Gandhi replied that the women’s education had been neglected, to the shame of the men. He could only conjecture, with regard to the figures for Kashmir, that if illiteracy was greater there, it was due to the negligence of the ruler or because the population was predominantly Mohammedan, but he thought that, as a matter of fact, it was six of the one and half a dozen of the other. —from International Affairs, London, November 1931: from a long speech by Mahatma Gandhi, on October 20, 1931 held under the auspices of the Royal Institute of International Affairs at Chatham House, London; the meeting was attended by influential Englishmen and English-women drawn from all parts of England. Lord othian, who was one of the British chairmen at the Round Table Conference on India, presided at this meeting. (The above text is copied from Collected Works, Vol.48, pp.199-200, 201-2) · · · 5, Inverness Gardens, W.8. 21st October, 1931 M.K. Gandhi, Esq., Round Table Conference, St. James Palace, S.W.1. Dear Mr Gandhi, I understood you to say last night at the Royal Institute of International Affairs that you could prove on the evidence of British officials that literacy had diminished in British India in the last fifty or hundred years. In reply to my request for the precise authority for this statement you mentioned a Punjab Administration Report, (without, however, giving the date,) and said that what had happened in the Punjab must have happened in the rest of India. You mentioned, too, an article in ‘Young India’, but also without giving its date. The subject is one in which I have taken a deep interest for some years, and I should be grateful, therefore, if you would very kindly give me precise references to the printed documents on which your statements were based, so that I may consult them. You will, I feel sure, forgive me for pointing out that the 347

assumption that what happens in the educational world in the Punjab necessarily happens in the rest of India is a mistaken one. It is generally recognised that the Punjab has made more rapid advances in primary education in the last 10 or 15 years than any other province in India. In reply to my question about the inferiority of the literacy in the two largest Indian States, Kashmir, (Predominantly Mohammedan with a Hindu ruler), and Hyderabad, (Predominantly Hindu with a Mohammedan ruler), you suggested that perhaps Kashmir was educationally backward because it was predominantly Mohammedan, but this left the backwardness of Hyderabad as compared with British India unexplained. Probably the facts had not been previously brought to your notice. If you should find ultimately that the inference from your remarks that backwardness in literacy and education has been due to British administration in India was unjustified, I feel certain that you would wish to correct your statement. I am Yours sincerely, Sd/-Philip Hartog M.K. Gandhi Esq., Round Table Conference, St. James' Palace, S.W.1 . . . 88, Knightsbridge, London, W. 23rd October, 1931 Dear Friend, Inadvertently, I have no doubt, you have omitted to sign your letter, but as the address is fully given, I am hoping that this letter will reach you. You will realise that I could not off-hand give you the dates, but since you would gladly study the whole question, I would find out the numbers of 'Young India' in which the articles appeared and send the references to you. I shall also find out what is possible to prove with reference to the other provinces, apart from the deductions that I have drawn from the Punjab. Meanwhile, I have no difficulty in drawing the deduction from the rest 348

of the Provinces from the examples of the Punjab and Burma. Whatever may be the strides made by the Punjab during the past five or ten years, cannot affect the argument that I have advanced to you. About Kashmir, as I said in reply, mine was merely a conjecture, but since you are so interested in the question, I shall try and find out the true state of education in Kashmir. You are quite right in feeling certain that if there were any error in my reasoning or the facts that I stated, I should imme- diately correct them, and whilst I should try to verify more fully the statements that I made, you will also on your part oblige me by giving me such information as may be in your possession and as may help me to understand the truth. Yours sincerely, Sd/- M.K. Gandhi P.M.C. . . . 5,Inverness Gardens,W.8. 27th October 1931 Dear Mr Gandhi, I am much obliged by your very friendly letter of 23rd October and must apologise for having omitted to sign my own of the 22nd. I must have signed the carbon copy instead of the copy sent. I shall be grateful for the references to the articles in ‘Young India’ which you promise me, and I will verify them and give you my opinion of them. Table 55 349

In reply to your request for the sources of my own knowledge of the history of education in India, I would refer you to the sources quoted in the report of the Calcutta University Commission of which I was Chairman (Interim Report of the Indian Statutory Commission, H.M. Stationery Office, Cmd. 3407,1929), and especially to the literacy figures, taken from the census reports and quoted on p.382 of Vol.1 of the Simon Report, which I subjoin:— In 1911 the figure for British India was 12%; and in 1881 8%. It has always to be remembered that these percentages are adversely affected by the existence of nearly 20,000,000 aboriginals and hill tribes, as well as by the educational backwardness of a far greater number of ‘untouchables’. You will notice that the figure for males for British India increased from 8% in 1881 (50 years ago) to 12% in 1911 and 14.4% in 1921, not a rapid increase, but still an increase. In Travancore and Cochin you have a large number of Indian Christians. In Baroda the system of compulsory primary education taken from Western models, began to be introduced in 1893. The census figures, as you well see, are in complete contradiction with your assertion that literacy has diminished in British India in the last fifty years. The figures for Hyderabad (preponderatingly Hindu with a Mohammedan ruler), and for Kashmir (preponderatingly Muslim with a Hindu ruler) seem inexplicable if you attribute illiteracy to British administration. I would refer you also to the chapter on Education which I have contributed to ‘Modern India’ (Oxford University Press, 1931), and finally to a work by an advanced Indian political thinker, the late Lala Lajpat Rai (National Education in India, 1920), whose views, though in many ways opposed to your own, I am sure you would find interesting. I welcome your decision, of which I felt assured beforehand, that you will immediately correct your statement, if you are convinced that it is erroneous, and I look forward to your doing so. Believe me, Yours sincerely, Sd/- Philip Hartog 350

5,Inverness Gardens,W.8. 13th November, 1931 M.K. Gandhi, Esq. 88, Knightsbridge, W. Dear Mr Gandhi, I wrote on October 27th in reply to your letter to me of October 23rd, but have not yet received from you the promised references to the documents (a Punjab Administration Report and the articles in ‘Young India’) on which your statement that literacy had diminished in British India during the last fifty years was based. In case my letter of the 27th may have miscarried I enclose a copy of it, and am sending this to you by registered post. I am, Yours sincerely, Sd/- Philip Hartog M.K. Gandhi, Esq. 88, Knightsbridge W. . . . 88, Knightsbridge, S.W.1. (Post-Mark Nov. 14, 1931) (To Sir Philip Hartog, London) Dear Friend, Mr Gandhi has your letter of the 27th October. He has now been able to secure the files of ‘Young India’ for 1920 and wants me to send you the enclosed copies. Yours sincerely, Mahadeo Desai. (see following page) 351

COPY OF ARTICLE TAKEN FROM ‘YOUNG INDIA’ 8TH DECEMBER 1920 THE DECLINE OF MASS EDUCATION IN INDIA (By Daulat Ram Gupta, M.A.) It is generally believed that from the time the British Government have taken in their hands the duty of educating the people of India, in accordance with the Parliamentary dispatch of 1854, the country has made remarkable progress in education, in so far as the number of schools, the number of scholars, and the standard of education are concerned. It will be my business to prove, that we have made no such progress in these respects,—a fact which will be startling to some and a revelation to others— and in so far as our mass education is concerned, we have certainly made a downward move since India has passed to the British Crown. The advent of British Rule found in India systems, of education of great antiquity and value existing among both Hindus and Mussalmans, in each case closely bound up with their religious institutions. There was not a mosque, a temple, a Dharamsala, that had not a school attached to it. To give and receive instruction was regarded as a religious duty. Schools of learning were formed in centres containing a considerable high caste population, where Pandits gave instruction in Sanskrit, grammar, logic, philosophy and law. For the lower classes, village schools were scattered over the country in which a good rudimentary education was given to the children of petty traders, cultivators and landlords. The very fact that every family of the DWIJA (twice-born) and every guild of the mixed castes, and every village of any importance, had its own priest, and that it was enjoined upon the priest to teach as well as to minister to religion, leads one to the belief, on strong prima facie grounds, that education was very widely diffused among the people. The higher education of the Mussalmans was in the hands of men of learning. Schools were attached to mosques and shrines and supported by the state grant in cash or land, or by private liberality. The course of study in a Muslim Madrassa included grammar, rhetoric, logic, literature, jurisprudence, and science. Thus, in Madras, in an inquiry conducted by Sir Thomas Munro in 1826, it is stated that in 1826 there were 11,758 352

indigenous schools and 740 colleges giving instruction to 1,57,664 boys, and 4,023 girls. (Vide Education Commission Report by the Madras Provincial Committee 1884). It is therefore estimated, that considering the population in that period (123,50,941) elementary indigenous education was imparted to about one-fourth of the boys of school-going age. It was also estimated that there was at least one school to every 1,000 of the population. ‘But as only a few females were taught in schools, we may reckon one school to every 500 of the population.’ Mr Munro, (as he then was) further supplements this estimate of the spread of education with the following observation:— I am, however, inclined to estimate the portion of the male population, who receive school education, to one-third than one-fourth of the whole, because we have no return of the numbers taught at home. In 1826, such was the state of purely indigenous education in a province which had been under British influence for over a century and was, therefore, fast disintegrating old institutions and adopting new ones. In Bengal, Mr W. Adam, conducted a similar inquiry and found that in 1835 ‘a network of primitive Vernacular schools existed throughout Bengal’, and he estimated their number to be about one lakh. The Sadler Commission has pointed out that ‘no attempt was made to develop these schools.’ Government preferred to devote its energies to secondary and higher schools, on the theory that, if Western education were introduced among the upper classes, it would ‘filter down’ by a natural process to the lower classes. Practically all the public funds available for education were expended on schools and colleges founded and controlled by Government, and nothing was spent upon indigenous schools, and as rent-free lands attached to these schools were resumed, the schools were left without any financial aid and naturally collapsed. The purpose of all this was political. Sir Sankaran Nair in his masterly Minute of Dissent writes:— Efforts were made by the government to confine higher education and secondary education, leading to higher education, to boys in affluent circumstances...Rules were made calculated to restrict the diffusion of education generally and among the poorer boys in particular. Conditions for “recognition” for “grants”—stiff and various—were laid down and enforced, and the non- fulfillment of any one of these 353

conditions was liable to be followed by serious consequences. Fees were raised to a degree, which, considering the circumstances of the classes that resort to schools, were abnormal. When it was objected that minimum fee would be a great hardship to poor students the answer was such students had no business to receive that kind of education. Managers of private schools who remitted fees in whole or in part, were penalised by reduced grants-in-aid. Thus, by this policy, education was only confined to the well-to-do classes. ‘They it was believed would give no trouble to the Government.’ Sri Sankaran Nair, therefore, concludes that, It is the universal belief, and there is little doubt that facts unfortunately tend to prove it, that primary English Education for the masses, and higher education for the higher classes are discouraged for political reasons. Higher, professional, industrial and technical education is discouraged to favour English industries and recruitment in England of English officials. In the Punjab the state of indigenous education was much better because of the special efforts made by Maharaja Ranjit Singh to promote learning. Dr Leitner, who was the Principal of the Oriental College and Government College, Lahore, and who also officiated for some time as Director of Public Instruction, Punjab, conducted a very thorough going inquiry into the state of indigenous education in the Punjab, and in his book on the ‘History of Indigenous Education’ in the Punjab, he writes:— I am about to relate—I hope without extenuation or malice—the history of the contact of a form of European, with one of the Asiatic, civilisation; how in spite of the best intentions, the most public-spirited officers, and a generous government that had the benefit of the traditions of other provinces, the true education of the Punjab was crippled, checked and is nearly destroyed; how opportunities for its healthy revival and development were either neglected or perverted; and how, far beyond the blame attaching to individuals, our system stands convicted of worse then official failure. He therefore writes:— I fear that my account of the decline of indigenous education in the Punjab may offend some prejudices and oppose 354

some interests. I have to appeal to rulers to put themselves in the position of the ruled, if they wish to understand them...and both the writer of these pages and the reader must endeavour to divest themselves of every preconception. Indeed, the man has so often described the struggle with the lion, that it would be well to sketch a picture which the lion might have drawn had he been a painter. Referring to the educational glory of the Punjab before annexation he writes: Respect for learning has always been the redeeming feature of the East. To this the Punjab formed no exception. Torn by invasion and war, it ever preserved and added to educa- tional endowments. The most unscrupulous chief, the avaricious money lender, and even the free-booter, vied with the small land-owner in making peace with his conscience by founding schools and rewarding the learned. There was not a mosque, a temple, a Dharamsala, that had not a school attached to it, to which the youth flocked chiefly for religious education. There were few wealthy men who did not entertain a Maulvi, Pandit, or Guru to teach their sons, and along with them the sons of friends and dependents. There were also thousands of secular schools, frequented alike by Mahomedans, Hindus and Sikhs, in which Persian or Hindi was taught. There were hundreds of learned men who gratuitously taught their co-religionists, and sometimes all comers, for the sake of God, “Lillah”. There was not a single village who did not take a pride in devoting a portion of his produce to a respected teacher. In respectable Mahomedan families husbands taught their wives, and these their children; nor did the Sikhs prove in that respect to be unworthy of the appellation of “Learners and disciples”. In short the lowest computation gives us 3,30,000 pupils in the schools of the various denominations who were acquainted with reading, writing and some method of computation, whilst thousands of them belonged to Arabic and Sanskrit Colleges, in which oriental literature and system of oriental law, logic, philosophy and medicine were taught to the highest standards. Tens of thousand also acquired a proficiency in Persian which is now rarely reached in government and aided schools and colleges. Through all schools there breathed a spirit of devotion to education for its own sake, and for its influence on the character and on religious culture; whilst even the sons of Banias who merely 355

learnt what they absolutely required in order to gain a livelihood, looked with respect, amounting to adoration, on their humble Pandhas, who taught them the elements of two ‘Rs’. Dr Leitner further describes the state of feeling with respect to education in the Punjab. He writes: The Punjab is classic ground. Not merely the celebrated country between Sutlej and the Jumna, but also the whole province teems with noble recollections. The history of its culture will tell us of a simple worship...........of an ardent republicanism allied to the most chivalrous devotion to chiefs, of capacity for self-Government not equalled elsewhere, and above all, of the universal respect for learning and of the general spread of education. The priest was a professor and poet, and education was a religious, social and professional duty. It is, therefore, our belief, founded on authentic historical data, that before annexation, every Punjab village had a school of its own. In every Indian village which has retained anything of its form...the rudiments of knowledge are sought to be imparted; there is not a child, except those of the outcastes (who form no part of the community), who is not able to read, to write, to cypher; in the last branch of learning, they are confessedly most proficient.’ (Vide BRITISH INDIA by Ludlow). Dr Leitner estimated that in 1854-55 there were at least 30 thousand schools, and if we count at least 13 pupils per school, the total number of pupils will amount to 4 lakhs. Dr Leitner writes: ‘The village school would contain 3,00,000 pupils, but there are reasons for estimating larger number.’ Further, in backward districts like that of Hushiarpur, the Settlement Report of 1852, shows a school to every 1,965 male inhabitants (adults and non-adults), which may be contrasted with the present proportion of one government or aided school to every 9,028 or one school to 2,818.7 inhabitants including the present number of ascertained indigenous schools throughout the province, a significant contrast to the proportion of one school to every 1,783 inhabitants in the most backward division of the Punjab in 1849 when brought under British Rule after a period of confusion following on war and annexation. 356

Such was the state of affairs in 1882, but the contrast will become more startling if we look at the figures already repro- duced in ‘Young India’. A mere glance at that statement will show how the indigenous education has declined, and how stagnant the state of education has remained from 1882 to 1918-19. In a period of 37 years the government has done nothing whatsoever for mass education. In a period less than this, England was able to educate the whole of its populations; in a period considerably less than this, America could give education to a population without any records of civilisation or intellectual stamina; and in a period equal to this, Japan was able to work out its destiny. But such is the way of doing things in India that during all this time nothing was done except to shift schools from one place to another, to shift the expenses of education from one source to another, to shift the responsibility from man to man; in fact to make shifts as best as could be done. Such in brief is the history of the decline of indigenous education, and as to how it was crushed in the Punjab will form the subject matter of the next article. . . . COPY OF ARTICLE TAKEN FROM ‘YOUNG INDIA’ OF 29TH DECEMBER 1920 HOW INDIGENOUS EDUCATION WAS CRUSHED IN THE PUNJAB 1849-1886 The Punjab was the last of all the Provinces of India to come under the direct influence of the English. The Honourable the East India Company had during a couple of centuries, extended their sphere of influence from the Cape to the Jamuna; but its administrators never thought it worth the trouble to go beyond the Moghul Court. The Moghul Court itself was jealous of any encroachments upon its northern province—the gateway to Kabul—which they still looked upon as their ancestral home. When the descendants of Aurangzeb began to bungle things in this province, the invaders from the North and the people from within threw in a state of anarchy and misrule. Under such circumstances the hardy Sikh began to realise his own importance and individuality. Ever afterwards till 1849, the Sikhs kept the 357

banks of Beas free from all diplomatic or martial overtures. They preferred their own incapacity to govern to an established order of things where their liberty would be restrained and their religion interfered with. The Sikh like the Hindu is essentially devout, and his devotion always lands him on the side of conservatism; of respect for the past, its institutions and traditions. So that, when the reins of government and authority passed into the hands of the Sikhs, both from lack of initiative and requirements of diplomacy, they left untouched all the old village institutions. Whereas, British administrators in other provinces were changing and modifying ancient ways and manners to suit their own conceptions, the Sikh Sirdar was content to let things have their own way, so long as he got the revenue that he wanted. The result of it all was that a network of village schools which traditions of a thousand years past had spread all over India, was in its full strength here. If any change was made at all, it was to add the Granthi or Bhai, to the Maulvi and the Pandit. Instead of there being two traditional teachers of village youth, now there became three. The village education was an essential part of the village administration and the provision for it was made in the village expenses. The ‘school-master’s field’, the ‘watchman’s field’ never disappear from the village books. There was in every village in the Punjab, a school of some sort, in which elementary education, having a direct bearing on the secular needs of the pupil, was imparted either free of cost, or at a nominal rate of monthly fee. In addition to these schools, there were spread all over the province ‘colleges’ of various grades and denominations in which the ancient ideals of the academies were kept alive and potent. There were centres of advanced studies of metaphysics, astronomy, mathematics, grammar, philosophy and other sciences. That much good was done to all sections of the community by these indigenous schools and colleges, is beyond doubt a fact recognised even by the bitter antagonists of the indigenous system. From the advanced ‘colleges’, in which classical education (Arabic and Sanskrit) was imparted to students of mature age and thought, to the elementary Mahajani, Sharafi, and Lande Schools, there was a very large variety of quasi- classical vernacular and technical schools. The teachers always kept in view the requirements of individual students and the profession they were qualifying for.

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There was no class instruction, as in our schools reducing all intellects to the same level and retarding the industrious for the sake of the dullard. But recitations in Sanskrit and the system of repeating lessons in chorus on the dispersion of the school encouraged such emulation as may be necessary, whilst the separate instruction of the pupil and his devotion to his work during the time that he was not reading with his tutor stimulated those habits of reflection and of private study, in which the students of present day schools are sadly deficient. Then again when the student grew older, he travelled to learn philosophy under one tutor, and law under another, much in the same way as students of German Universities visit various seats of learning in order to hear, say, international law at Heidelberg, the Pandects at Berlin. It would not be without interest to point out that from the humblest beginnings in education up to the highest courses in Hindu metaphysics and science great wisdom was displayed. Traces of the ‘Kindergarten system’ are still found. The simplest methods for arresting and keeping attention were resorted to and the moral and mental capacities of children, according to their spheres of life, were everywhere carefully studied and cultivated. As for the mode of instruction, it also bore in every one of its features the emphatically practical as well as ideal aim of the Hindu legislator. That the above statement is not an unsupported assertion, I will quote a paragraph from the first educational despatch of the Court of Directors which was issued on the 3rd June 1814. The Directors point out that ‘the indigenous village schools are a part of the village system and that they have formed a model to schools in England.’ Again they point out ‘this venerable and benevolent institution of the Hindus is represented to have withstood the shock of revolutions, and to its operation is ascribed the general intelligence of the native.’ In 1848 the Government of the Punjab passed into the hands of the East India Company. The first Board of Administration in the Punjab recognised the full value of the rich educational legacy, which they inherited from the decaying and disintegrating Sikh constitution. Recognising the widespread character of the indigenous education, and the necessity of keeping up old educational traditions alive, Sir John and Sir Henry Lawrence defined their policy in matters of education in the following words:— 359

‘We intend to set up one school, if not in every village, at least in every circle of villages, so that at least there should be something throughout the land in which the children do attend some rudimentary school.’ How far policy was actually carried out will be explained in another article. · · · 5,Inverness Gardens,W.8. 17 November 1931 Dear Mr Gandhi, I beg to acknowledge with thanks the undated letter received on November 14th, written on your behalf by Mr M. Desai in which were enclosed typed copies of two articles on Indian education by Mr D.R. Gupta published in Young India for 8th December 1920 and 29th December 1920. I understand that it is on the evidence adduced in those articles and on a Punjab Administration Report to which you have not given me the reference, that you base the sweeping statement that literacy had diminished in British India during the past fifty years, and that you could prove this from official statements. I have examined the articles and can find nothing in them to support your contention. The articles do not contain a single percentage of literacy. The chief authority quoted is the ‘History of Indigenous Education in the Punjab’ by Dr G.W. Leitner, a Punjab Official. I feel sure that when you made your assertion you cannot have been aware that that book was published nearly fifty years ago, in 1882. Mr D.R. Gupta does not mention the fact. Nor does he point out that so far from regarding the Punjab as typical, Leitner compares that Province educationally to its disadvantage with the Central Provinces and with Lower Bengal (loc. cit. p.3). It is only within the past ten or fifteen years that the Punjab has made the rapid advances in primary education to which I referred in my letter of 21st October. I am still awaiting the reference which you promised to a Punjab Administration Report. I have consulted recent Punjab Administration Reports, but can find nothing in them relating to literacy in British India, and it is obviously unlikely that any 360

Punjab Report would deal with such a subject. If you find therefore that your reference was made in error, may I suggest that you should now withdraw your statement in accordance with the undertaking given in the last paragraph of your letter to me of October 23rd? Yours sincerely, Sd/-Philip Hartog P.S.: May I ask from what Report Sir Sankaran Nair’s Note of Dissent referred to in Mr Gupta’s first article, is quoted? No reference is given in the article itself. Sd/- P.H. M.K. Gandhi, Esq,. 88, Knightsbridge, W. . . . 88, Knightsbridge London, S.W. 1, November 19, 1931 Sir Philip Hartog, K.B.E. 5 Inverness Gardens, W.8. Dear Sir Philip, I am much obliged to you for your letter of the 17th inst. I do not propose just now to withdraw the statement I made at the meeting at Chatham House. At the present moment I have not got any time for searching the records to which you are making reference. I, however, promise not to forget the matter, and if I find that I cannot support the statement made by me at Chatham House, I will give my retraction much wider publicity than the Chatham House speech could ever attain. Meanwhile I am endeavouring to find out the references you want. Yours sincerely, Sd/- M.K. Gandhi Sir Philip Hartog, K.B.E. 5 Inverness Gardens, W.8 . . . 361

5,Inverness Gardens,W.8. 20 November 1931 Dear Mr Gandhi, I am much obliged by your letter of yesterday’s date. I think it might help matters if you could spare me a few moments of your valuable time; and I should be glad to call on you if would suggest a day and hour. I am, Yours sincerely, Sd/- Philip Hartog M.K. Gandhi, Esq,. 88, Knightsbridge, W. . . . 5, Inverness Gardens,W.8. 22nd November 1931 Dear Mrs Naidu, In accordance with your kind suggestion today I send you enclosed copies of my letters to Mr Gandhi of 27th October and 17th November. The other letters from me do not contain any detailed information. Would you kindly return the enclosures at your convenience? With kind regards, Yours sincerely, Sd/-Philip Hartog Mrs Sarojini Naidu, 7, Park Place, St. James’, S.W.I. . . . Scar Top, Boars Hill, Oxford. November 23, 1931 Dear Sir Philip Hartog, I probably under-rate the indigenous system of Indian education; at any rate, I have never thought it amounted to much. My statement is not the usual extravagant claim of the Nationalist, but a pretty mild one. 362

However, you will get the evidence in F.E. Keay, Ancient Indian Education, Oxford University Press 1918—esp. pp.51, 57, 107 and passim. Dr Leitner, History of Indigenous Education in the Punjab, pp.14, 21 passim. A Report for the Punjab Government issued in 1882. A.P. Howell, Education in British India Prior to 1854. And Ludlow, British India. The Madras Presidency made an enquiry, 1822-6, and calculated that rather less than one-sixth of the boys of school- going age received education of some sort. Bombay Presidency, 1823-8, estimated it as one in eight, Bengal, 13.2 percent (Adam’s enquiry 1835). William Ward supposed that about one- fifth of the male population of Bengal could read. I know the difficulties. But I feel more and more that in this matter, of general education, we did precious little to congratu- late ourselves on—until the last dozen years. Don’t you agree? Calcutta University was damned bad. And the Middle Vernacular schools— Yours sincerely, Sd/- Edward Thompson P.S. I do not believe we destroyed indigenous schools and indige- nous industries out of malice (which is what is stated, in Ameri- ca as well as India). It was inevitable. . . . 363

INTERVIEW WITH MR GANDHI ON DECEMBER 2, 1931 In my last letter to Mr G. relating to his statement at the Royal Institute of International Affairs on October 20th that literacy in India had diminished during the last 50 or 100 years (see Journal of International Affairs November 1931, pp.727, 728, 734, 735). I had asked him for an interview. I received no reply in writing, but Mrs Sarojini Naidu, to whom I had spoken on the matter, arranged for an interview today, by telephone, and I went to see Mr G. at 88, Knightsbridge at 4 p.m. and stayed till five. He was lying on a sofa covered with his shawl in front of a big fire, obviously tired, though he insisted on rising both when I came and when I went. He told me that he had thought his strength was equal to anything but that he was now saturated. I suggested that he might be too tired to discuss matters but he said that it was a pleasure to meet me and he apologised sincerely for not having written to offer me an appointment. He admitted at once that he had at present no facts to substantiate his statements and did not attempt to answer my argument that the articles in Young India for December 8th and 29th 1920 by Daulat Ram Gupta of which he had furnished me with typed copies, contained no literacy figures and that the most recent official report in them, Dr G.W. Leitner’s History of Indigenous Education in the Punjab was written in 1882 and could therefore furnish no evidence with regard to the progress or decline of literacy in India during the last 50 years. He told me that Mr Mahadeo Desai who was present had been investigating the matter in the British Museum. Mr Desai admitted that he had found nothing fresh up to the present. Mr G. said that he would question the writer of the articles in Young India and that on his return he would get competent friends to investigate the matter for him over there and that he would send me a cablegram with regard to the result, and that in it he would say whether he had found material that would convince me that he was right, or that he would apologise handsomely for his mistake, and would make his withdrawal in such a way as to reach a much wider audience than his original statement. I showed him Leitner’s Book and pointed out the statement on p.3 in which Leitner had pointed out that the Punjab was not typical but far behind the Central Provinces and Lower Bengal in the proportion of pupils to population, a statement not referred to by Mr Gupta though he had quoted figures in regard to Hushiarpur from p.2. I told Mr G. that the population of British 364

India in 1882 was roughly speaking 210 millions and that it had increased in 1931 to about 270 millions, i.e. about 30 percent in round figures, and that during that period the number of pupils under instruction in British India had increased from about 2½ millions to over 11 millions, i.e. more than 4 times, and that it would be surprising therefore if literacy had diminished during these 50 years. I also pointed out that it was impossible to draw any accurate conclusions on the other hand in regard to literacy from the numbers of pupils under instruction. Howell in his Education in British India had pointed out that for many reasons, including the early age at which the children are withdrawn it was almost worthless (loc. cit. p.7). I also mentioned that during the years 1917-1927 in Bengal with an increased enrolment of over 3,00,000 pupils (the actual figure is about 370,000) there had been a decline of about 30,000 pupils in the number that reached Class IV where under present conditions, literacy was first attained. I also showed Mr G. certain figures of literacy for Bengal from Adam's Report on Vernacular Education of 1835-38 and compared them with the census figures for 1921 Vol.5, p.302. I further showed him census figures for 1911 and 1901 taken from the same volume, p.285, showing considerable increases in literacy in Burma, Bengal and Madras, though the Punjab, Bihar, Bombay and United Provinces had made little or no progress during those years. Mr Gandhi said, 'I know very little about these things' in a tone of apology, to which I rejoined that he had no doubt many other things to occupy his attention. Towards the end of the interview I said that I hoped that he was now on the side of peace. He replied that he had meant exactly what he had said on the previous day, that he would read the Prime Minister's declaration over again and again, and that he felt the immense personal responsibility that rested on his shoulders in advising Congress. He said that he had postponed his departure in order to see Sir Samuel Hoare on the following Friday as Sir Samuel had said that he would have no free time during the debate in Parliament (on the Wednesday and Thursday). I said, 'I am sure you must be convinced that Englishmen are in earnest in wishing to give India everything possible at the present moment.' He said, 'Yes, but there is one thing that the English sincerely believe, but which I cannot understand. They think us incapable of managing our own affairs even with the help of experts. When I was a young man and my father 365